March 1, 2022

The Messy, Unscalable Intimacy of Community

Hi friends,

Hello world. What words do we have left to greet the world? What is civic responsibility in the face of attack? What is collective organizing in the face of despair and disparity? (For anyone who stumbles on this at a later date, Russia invaded Ukraine the week before publishing.)

On the note of the collective…I bring you friends who talk about the messy, unscalable intimacy of community, as it relates to our digital worlds. Read in full; you won't regret it. Trails we meander down:

  • The role of tech in digital communities
  • The contrasting incentives of public welfare and private capital
  • What participation and investment looks like - touching on a bias we're seeing in looking to solutions through a web3 model - and how does work and value fit into this vs. belonging
  • Increasing accessibility to emerging tech

Contributors:

  • Words: Jessica Waal is a designer, strategist and educator working in systems and innovation. Originally from Perth, she worked with IDEO in New York City and is currently at Frog in Amsterdam. She's happiest in the garden.
  • Words: Vicky Gu is an editor, designer, and strategist based in Brooklyn, with roots in Dallas and Shanghai. She's working on being available for the art she was meant to make.
  • Art: Nya, the Pawfessional Cat is an arrtist making many happy accidents running across her hooman Anya’s work. All work and no play makes 100% hooman but a terrible cat, so cats everywhere demand to play more. (Ed note: based in Singapore.)

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INT. HOME OFFICE - MORNING IN NYC / AFTERNOON IN AMS. WE OPEN in a WhatsApp chat on an uncharacteristically warm February Friday, at least for New York. JESS and VICKY engage in introductory banter on the digital proverbial stage, a secret conversation about autism and conditioned performance that has meandered into the topic du jour.

Jess: cue COMMUNITY! love a segue. ps. i apologize for the many typos that will happen today

Vicky: no apologies, just joy

Jess: yes - let's move forward with Joy - love that

Vicky: to kick us off, i'm going to reshare one of your original thoughts from our brainstorm:

Jess: on community - there's this gap and i haven't figured out how to clearly articulate it. there's my lived experience of community - which is loving, messy, painfully human, requires vulnerability and the expression of need as well as the grace of accepting help, and has traditionally relied so much on lucky interactions and introductions. to this new online world which has a very intentional sense of community and a less human, unfamiliar interface to navigate.

Vicky: i love this starting thought of yours and how it encapsulates the tension in community. first responding with some slides from a presentation i stumbled on from Goldie "Red" Burns, who was a chair of the Interactive Telecommunications Program (ITP) in the Tisch School of the Arts at New York University. (she was known as the "Godmother of Silicon Alley", New York's technology district.)

Jess: let's start with a slow clap for that deck. what a treat to have those single considered thoughts linked across 100 pages…

Vicky: so, i love her ethos - though that slide on "enhancing the human spirit" makes me hesitate because of how we're seeing companies interpret that in ways that might not be…fully grounded in raw, gritty, lived experience? visionary but sometimes exclusionary?

Jess: for me, the tech we're using is at most a facilitator for the exchange and interactions that build relationships.

Vicky: mmm yes. so right now my mind is thinking about two differing takes on social relationships - one from a public welfare perspective, and one from the private profit perspective.

backing up: in college, i interned under dr. vivek murthy, then the 19th US surgeon general (also now our current 21st!), and i distinctly remember how increasing emotional well being and decreasing social isolation were big on his public health priorities.

in his book Together, he shares his dream for a third bowl society:

"What [a third-bowl society] looks like is organizations that build and design workplaces to strengthen human connection by creating opportunities for people to truly understand each other as human beings, not just as skill sets. It looks like schools that invest in social and emotional learning so they can give children a foundation for how to build healthy relationships. It looks like neighborhoods where we put more of a premium on reaching out to and getting to know neighbors. It looks like a society that recognizes that we are truly interdependent creatures who need each other, which means that there are times when we have the ability to serve and times where we need to be served."

then i juxtapose that with an a16z published piece on "go-to-community" strategy being the new "go-to-market" strategy. look at this contrast! it's jarring, it's fascinating:

"Community is the “new” moat (or so some have said), and it’s true: Having a community helps protect against competitor companies or products entering your territory. Whether that community is a group of power users, open source contributors, creators, or even just a brand (or franchise)’s super fans, it lends greater brand awareness, higher switching costs, and scale economies."

Jess: what an internship! how do we manage the tensions between these two: the search for human connection vs. the commoditization of the collective.

i see it in my work. in the companies that hire design to build community around their brand / product. for me, it's an inside/out notion. the brands want to build relevance and engage with a customer. we/designers try to connect them to actual customers and their needs, behaviours and aspirations. we then build something to unite this group. but in reality, nobody really has a relationship with a “company” - it's always people at the end of the day.

which is why tools and platforms - facilitators - seem to be emerging with less of a brand agenda. well, some…i'm being hopeful with that “agenda” bit. the shift to communities being "empowered" is interesting to me.

Vicky: yes, i think it'd be interesting to talk to someone at discord about the incentives behind how they build their platform, given their $982.6M funding. because at this point - as someone who's managed communities and social media professionally - my relationship with social media is transactional at best. i have no interest in using social media 1.0 for community building, but discord (social media 2.0 / 3.0?) changes things.

Jess: …and what's your motivation for building community first if you already have that money?

Vicky: the money! let's talk about the money!

Jess: bridging this is a challenge for me. as a designer, i’m often trying to simplify interactions. but when we’re motivated by curiosity, enjoyment - like you say on discord - it's the result of planning but also serendipity. it's hours of exploring, playing, diving down rabbit holes. heaps of reading and listening then maybe participating. this experience of community isn't about scale or speed, and certainly not the $$$ 🤣

Vicky: yes, and the blasted part is that given what today's work does (when i say work i'm referring to white collar, knowledge workers who can do their jobs remotely) - it sucks out the energy for us to do things like…read fiction! for fun! for nothing! even with tv - some days i have no energy to watch happy people do happy things (e.g. great british bake off) or bad people do bad things (e.g. succession).

Jess: YES. this is a conversation i have with a lot of people. when did this happen to us?! time can sometimes get a bit distorted even if i’m working on things i like…because at the end of the day, i just have to get away from a screen. and it takes a lot of will to remember it would also be a cool idea to hang out with friends. because so often i think of all the other “productive” things i think i should / could / need to be doing.

does productivity kill community? i guess it makes it less accessible.

Vicky: zooming out a bit, i think of it like: shared drive unites community. and when that drive is sincere - which we often hear as "authentic" or "genuine" - that's where we see "productive" movement evolve in natural response. but if you try to reverse engineer it by uniting people around productivity - well, that's not a real conviction. the most effective drivers in my experience are deep dark things like pain and suffering, or blinding bright things like freedom and redemption. what we define as “ambition” - sometimes i wonder, where is the broken heart? when is ambition not just a flashy veneer of lukewarm fear?

circling back to community and incentive - i just remembered something i previously pitched to real life mag, here's a selected blurb:

You don't have to work in social media to intuit that "community management" too often stands as a euphemism for "customer and audience acquisition." We don't need more words on the trappings of social platforms, or brand marketers to articulate (or manufacture) reasons to organize; we need new language for sore eyes, minds, and souls.

Of course, tech-smart companies are very excited about the future of digital organizing, especially as a function of creative media. Democratize, decentralize. (But don't unionize!) Experimental developers, artists, and publishers have moved from Web2 to Web3, building alluring packages around collective mobilizing: decentralized autonomous organizations (DAOs) fueled by blockchain.

Yet similar to how the decentralized web didn’t work as we expected—the urgency to usher in this new paradigm trivializes cost and labor, to earth and society. Do we trust ourselves to build more equitable collectives out of the dust?

Still, the dream contains wisps of truth. It'd indeed be exciting to see new community models mature into fluid equilibrium. Imagine a world where we weave between wild, uninhibited digital spaces that value us for our humanity, not our wallets or clicks.

But long after the waves of COVID are quelled, Americans will still be dealing with the loneliness epidemic. Millions will not be able to afford the price of belonging that DAOs command, in this generation or the next or the next. Creators will continue organizing and forming alternate economies as an alternate to crypto economies. (Meta, they call it.)

Jess: we all acknowledge there has to be a more sustainable approach for creation and building collective value. the current DAO space feels like an early iteration of that. it's just incredibly skewed in a DeFi space that still requires a level of technical literacy and financial backing to participate - at least when it comes to governance. i know there's onboarding collectives popping up… but i hope, long term, we get smaller communities building their own models and internally circulating their own exchange of value. and that the tech is sitting in the background - servicing the contractual side of things.

Vicky: ah yes, that reminds me of this piece on how web3 is a backend revolution. it's just a clunky hypey path to getting there.

Jess: we bridge this with huge investments - time, intention… and yeah money - into accessibility and building a shared understanding/language for forms of value other than money.

anyone can set up a DAO. but finding the right people to moderate a discord that grows a community is a whole other challenge. I've started seeing job descriptions popping up around community managers in web3 and thought it was interesting.

Vicky: i've recruited for community roles with VC backed software companies, and a convo i am adamant about emphasizing is the vast amounts of emotional labor involved. it mirrors historical roles in press or social media. part of the job is being people's paid best friends.

Jess: super interesting… why brands try to personify companies - so they can create a "relationship" with people. the whole time there are two humans trying to wizard-of-oz-style facilitate some kind of connection.

Vicky: i thought about this all the time with working with brands - like when "brands" are friends, when you pull back the curtains it's often just the social media managers because they're literally the ones sending the messages to each other.

Jess: would love if the brands could just go make friends with each other please. More entertaining and valuable than targeted advertising shouting at us.

Vicky: "go make friends" like a parent sending their kid off to 1st grade :')

now i'm looking at an event from that On Deck page you linked, called "Fireside Chat: Scaling Intimacy with top VP of Community" and it reminds me of this piece on carceral tech and community defense in Logic Mag, wherein sarah t. hamid talks about the care involved in the "scale" of activism:

"Our work happens at this scale. The scale of friends, family, and loved ones. And yes, the answers often point to the role of giant sociotechnical systems. But we’re answering individual questions. And we’re doing it because we care about the people we are in community with, not because we’re trying to develop the best idea to sell a book. Our intervention is effective when we’re able to find the knowledge that allows people to enact meaningful change in their lives."

and going back to your point on accessibility, i think a lot about this concept of belonging and community applied specifically to the digital space. as a conventionally able bodied and able minded person, i have the fortune to operate in physical spaces and find incredible people and rich worlds in front of my eyes. it's interesting that most of the messaging and marketing i see from web3 companies operate from an assumption that our digital lives will become very important - perhaps even more important in some areas - than our physical lives. (the things covid has accelerated!)

that may be true for people who have the wealth and literacy to participate, but there are so many people - for example, the 37.2 million Americans in poverty in 2022 (11.4% of our population) - for whom digital lives will not carry significance anytime soon. for whom signaling digital belonging is not a priority over say, eating consistently nutritious meals.

Jess: 🤣 still recovering from "scaling intimacy"…i wonder is this the "right" / best goal for us in community building?

Vicky: i think community builders - at least those involved with private capital - need new language for what we're doing.

Jess: amen. language is really at the heart of connecting and making shared meaning.

Vicky: i get what they're trying to communicate but if we look at nonprofits, grassroots organizers, co-ops, faith groups…people have been engaging in these communal, collective ways for centuries (millennia?) already.

Jess: is the scale approach better represented by developing something which provides great value for the group and then opening it up? sharing it out as a tool and using that as the basis (platform) for connection rather than this branded membership view?

Vicky: yes and recognizing that sometimes it's the unsexy stuff that needs to scale first. pleasing packaging and polish is a nice-to-have.

Jess: yes! and in these groups, we get to grapple with the really interesting tensions like the need for autonomy and freedom of expression while balancing it with collective belonging…

Vicky: going back to how good design is about how it works, not how it looks.

Jess: form follow function 4eva

Jess: *follows

Vicky: no no leave the typo, we are beautiful imperfections tehe

Jess: so many other thoughts to add. think we could have this chat in 12 months and it would be an entirely different view…i guess we'll see!


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January 25, 2022

The Aesthetics of Tech

Introducing friends who talk about…: an editorial series where I invite friends from all corners of the world to spontaneously muse on topics we have edgy thoughts on. (Like a culture podcast but the episodes are in writing and there are visuals! I'm working on a non-clunky way to say this!)

The first issue is on the aesthetics of tech, and how we might live ethically with technology, material, privacy, data, and the looks of it all. Read to the end to earn the treat of our uneasy 2022 resolution. Contributors:

  • Words: Kelly Pendergrast is a writer and researcher living in San Francisco. She loves going to the movies and her favorite research tool is Google Images.
  • Words: Kyle Paoletta is a critic and journalist in Cambridge, MA. He thinks book jackets peaked in 1987.
  • Words: Me, an editor, designer, and strategist based in Brooklyn. She is a proud owner of a dumb beautiful speaker.
  • Photo: Behzod Sirjani is the founder of Yet Another Studio where he helps organizations build intentional practices of learning. He lives in Seattle, which is perfect except for its lack of Blue Bottle Coffee.

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Vicky: Thanks again both for joining me in this experiment! Starting us off with our prompt, an except from Kelly's piece on cozy tech for Real Life Mag:

"Smart fabrics and the luscious textiles that cover smart home assistants are, if anything, doubly alienated. After the transition of raw material and labor to commodity, the fibers are embedded with sensors or draped over internet-connected speakers, far removed from their earlier function as a cloth that warms and protects, connected to global systems of data collection and capital. What repressed horrors might bubble and reemerge with these strange new fabrics? What animating forces might be smuggled beneath the light-dappled cloth? Perhaps it’s just cloth. But with cloth comes a long history of labor, industry, computation, commodity fetishism, and fantasy. It’s never just cloth."

Kyle: Before we get into the specific questions posed at the end of your essay, Kelly, I thought I'd throw out a quote that was in the product design video for Google Home that you linked to. Isabelle Olsson, who leads their Design for Home division, says that her ultimate goal is "that the products we create become so natural in your life that you don't think about them as technology anymore."

That's an ambition that I think a lot of tech companies share, particularly the dominant ones, and I think it ratchets up the stakes of the questions on the table here.

Kelly: Yes! I'm still obsessed with that Google Home video (as an aesthetic object in itself, and as an ideological text). I do think a throughline of the Cozy Tech piece was about technology that is designed to obscure itself.

Vicky: Adding in the final quote of the video: "I think technology will eventually be invisible. The design challenge is to make that transition smooth and beautiful."

That brings up a new question for me: But is invisibility…good?

Kyle: Absolutely not!

Both because of the real-world impacts I just mentioned and because I think invisibility further obscures the real profit center for most of these companies, which is harvesting personal data and selling it to advertisers. We already exist mostly as consumer profiles in the digital world, so I guess I fear that fully integrating tech into our homes threatens to extend that into the physical world as well.

Kelly: Great question. I feel like tech boosters often counter this kind of critique, Kyle, with "well the old way of doing things was bad and exploitative as well, so why are you complaining about this cool innovation."

I think invisibility is inevitable to an extent — not necessarily literal invisibility (as in visually hidden) but naturalized to an extent that it no longer appears as 'technology.'

Kyle, yesterday I was reading "The New Pornographers" report that you contributed to, and thinking about the aesthetic lust that iPhones are designed to induce, moreso even than excitement about the technical specs. No fabric there, but a carapace of crave-able materials and shiny screens. Again, tech that makes itself about surfaces.

Kyle: Either way, tech does an amazing job of obscuring the horrific labor conditions and environmental degradation that goes into the creation of every product.

Vicky: Kyle, your thoughts remind me of a passage data artist Jer Thorp narrates in his book Living in Data: "What I've learned since my travels in Angola [as a National Geographic Explorer] is that all of us who live in data need to be better at imagining futures. Not only techno-utopian ones in which our work serves the greater good, but less hopeful paths in which our actions put people and environments in the face of harm. We need to understand that the act of collection does, in a real way, touch those who live in data. It touches them—us—in ways that can be immediately threatening, but also in small, repetitive, persistent, quotidian ways that accrue harm over time."

Kelly: Vicky, the thing that first jumped out from that passage (and I loved Thorp's book) was the "travels in Angola as a National Geographic Explorer" bit. I'm not sure of the context of his trip, but it does seem to speak to the challenge of understanding how data and tech touches people at different places in the supply chain or global economy.

Vicky: Yes — and also interesting that Thorp learns this from his experience in on-the-ground data collection in Angola — what might be considered a third world country to Americans. And yet "developed" countries fail to see the parallels between us, regardless of social stature or country development. It's like we unconsciously believe our relative wealth protects us from negative externalities, when in fact we're also so close to them.

Kyle: And we're all living in data now, for better or for worse. If I'm imagining the logical endpoint of the full integration of a product like Google Home or Amazon's Alexa devices, I think it would be something like a jug of milk being delivered to your door a few hours after you mention to your spouse that you're almost out. As this quote gets at, that's a utopia to some and a dystopia to others. I guess it depends how much you're willing to compromise your own autonomy in the name of convenience.

Right now we're making a choice to buy fast fashion or GMO grapes. What happens when we lose the opportunity to make those decisions for ourselves?

Kelly: Yes! I think there's an opportunity in the moment that new technologies are emerging to look at them critically and imagine their potential implications or unintended consequences. Eventually the new tech becomes old tech and it's no longer possible to "see" it in the same way. So, I think we need to grasp the chance to critique, even if we end up looking like goofy alarmists in the future.

Vicky: Oooof, don't get me started on our need for speed and crave for convenience. I don't understand it, at least for those who are conventionally able-bodied and without dependents. Though delivery services are another convo. Looping back around to smart tech—I think of a personal story:

I've never purchased a smart speaker, though I own a Google Home mini that a dear friend gifted to me years ago, intended as a space efficient speaker when I moved to NYC. I'd been using it in my bedroom, and one night as I was going to sleep, it started beeping and flashing lights. (It probably just lost wifi connection.) In my half-asleep state, I freaked out and ripped it out of the outlet immediately and wasn't emotionally ready to plug it back in until like a week later, lol.

I also realized I wasn't using it for anything other than playing music, and years later, I finally got myself a proper Marshall speaker.

Kelly: A Marshall! How musical/audiophile of you! Is it "smart"?

Vicky: Hah, it's blissfully dumb. Years later and still traumatized so I was going for a stupid beautiful speaker. I didn't realize until browsing the Marshall website that of course they already have speakers with Google Assistant and Amazon Alexa integrated.

Kyle: I haven't seen those before! I have a Sonos system that I absolutely loathe the look of (and experience of using, but that's a story for another day). I feel like doing something as simple as including a fabric front makes that product so much more appealing. Which is of course Kelly's whole point.

Kelly: Interesting how speakers are such a big space for aesthetics. Vicky, your acquisition of a Marshall (mid century chunky look with a proud rock and roll history) reminds me that it isn't just smart speakers and contemporary tech companies who are invested in speaker look and feel. There's a whole history of audiophile aesthetics to get invested in too. And fabric has been present all the way through, since it's a medium that allows sound to pass through.

Kyle: On a similar note, I've been struck by the Facebook/Ray-Ban sunglasses as a similar way to wed an established brand with futuristic technology. That seems like a pretty obvious attempt to skirt the problems with Google Glass by making the "smart" elements of the sunglasses invisible, never mind the attendant privacy concerns.

Kelly: Yes! It's almost surprising that it took this long to integrate smartness and new tech into these classic styles. Seems like until recently the focus was on pairing new tech with futuristic aesthetics.

Kyle: A much clunkier version of this is the ridiculous Bose Frames Tempos that we talked about in the Components piece, which feel very Sky Mall.

Kelly: Those Bose frames made me laugh out loud! So Sky Mall.

Vicky: Wow, I'm 110% not the target market for those.

Kyle: I feel like a lot of these products really teeter on a knife's edge between revolutionary and ridiculous. I want to say the Facebook Ray Bans are ridiculous, but I can't be sure.

Kelly: I'm truly not sure — with smart glasses, we may not know what's ridiculous and what's revolutionary until one of the models finally takes off in a big way!

Kyle: Probably the bigger issue is the fact that you're able to record people without them knowing it. Not a privacy issue for the consumer, and thus not one the company needs to pay lip service to, but still alarming.

Kelly: I also think "privacy" is a bit of a red herring with things like this — there may be some degree of data privacy and ability to control settings, but you're still bringing yourself into a whole ecosystem of data collection, extraction, and aggregation.

Although I have to admit that when the Ray Bans launched, the issue of recording people without their knowledge/consent barely crossed my mind, whereas with Google Glass it was a huge issue (and one of GG's downfalls). Perhaps that bird has flown?

Vicky: But baby bird's not ready to fly! The FB x Raybans came out around the same time I was looking for a new speaker, so I was already in a 'keep it simple, stupid' mindset. As a past marketing person, it made me wonder: if companies are gonna keep making smart stuff, they're gonna need to get better at accessibly engendering trust with people beyond just…a marketing microsite. Nicely packaged corporate communications have a history of smartwashing the gritty truth. Like greenwashing, but make it privacy?

Kyle: Kelly, what did you make of the Components "The New Pornographers" piece's treatment of tech's disposability? That seems to go together with your Real Life Mag essay on your OXO corkscrew.

Kelly: The Components approach to disposability really resonated with me! I appreciate the way repairability was tied in to questions around what truly user-focused tech would look like.

Kyle: I think we're all conditioned to think of an object like a corkscrew as having a finite lifespan, but we get annoyed when our devises stop working and need to be replaced. The more tech we have, the less annoyed about that we'll get, I wager. And that's probably not going to help us get to a more user-centered version of tech.

Vicky: On that note, quoting the fifth slide from the end in "The New Pornographers": "A truly user-focused review paradigm would map out the ways a user seeks to channel their will through an object and examine how that object potentiates or blocks that volition. This sounds simple and straightforward; reviewers would likely argue that they already do this. But if they did, the products they evaluate wouldn't be assessed as works of art on a relativistic score distribution, mostly good, many great. Instead, they'd be treated as tools that can either help or hinder the user, scored entirely according to where they fell on the continuum between useful and useless."

Kelly: Yes! That's what I was thinking about Vicky.

Kyle: Similarly, the more fuzzy and warm the design of consumer tech gets, the more distance we'll get from the idea that devices are supposed to be tools for doing certain things. Your Alexa speakers will just be like a lamp that sits in the corner until you go to use it and it doesn't work, at which point a newer, most pleasing designed version will already be on the way.

Kelly: Exactly — the workings of the smart phone and smart speaker are both obscured, whereas the corkscrew is out there in the open. If it breaks, you see why. But the Alexa feels like a mystery — if it stops working you may never find out why, but instead will feel ok to just chuck it and replace it (especially since desire will have been built for the new cooler model).

Vicky: Desire! At what point do our desires detract from our experience? From valuing and respecting the utility that's already in front of us?

Kyle: It's a physical manifestation of the way data gets defamiliarized from its source by analytical models (which I've written about in relation to elections and weather forecasting for Real Life Mag). It becomes so easy to lose track of the root of the thing once you have all these pretty pictures to admire.

Kelly: And why should we each have to keep track of the root of everything? It's an impossible burden!

Vicky: Burdens that we're perhaps not meant to meticulously track and carry.

Kelly: Also, and to your earlier point Vicky, objects like Google Home Mini are so easy to come by. Google is always trying to send me one! It's almost a challenge to keep them out of your house.

Vicky: Yes! It's like they're free—er, subsidized by ad profits.

Kyle: You know what they say, if the service is free, then you're the product.

Kelly: Now in weirder and more abstracted, datafied, ways than ever!

Vicky: Thinking about the new year and new year resolutions — for example, that we must constantly improve what's unsatisfactory about our lives — and matching that to the narrative that product companies often sell — "here, a thing that will solve for your deficiencies" — it makes me aarrrrgggghhhh.

Kelly: Me too! I started January with plans to do a month of gentle cleaning/apartment organization, but have already given up. The conflicting imperatives of minimalism, product fetishism, and aesthetics were too much for me!

Kyle: I can totally relate to Kelly's feeling. I find it impossible to disentangle anything I own from the devilish supply chain that brought it to me, the waste stream, or the ways in which is provides a way for other companies to make more money off me. If I'm a techno-sceptic, it's because I just don't believe the core tenant of consumerism: that the way to fix what ails you is to buy a product.

Vicky: Kelly, curious to what your closing thoughts to this might be. When it feels too much, what's just enough?

Kelly: I'll tell you when I find out! I'm hoping there's a point where I don't imagine half the objects in my apartment vibrating with unease — unease about their provenance or function, or about their aesthetic deficiency, or about my own relationship to them.

Vicky: Vibrating with unease! Yes. That something doesn't quite feel right — an inner rumbling that we all feel in varying intensities. But if anything, I think feeling at ease is the more dangerous mood to be in. So the queasiness must mean we're onto something — and I suppose that can be our solace.

With that, our 2022 resolution: Vibrate with Unease. 😅

Kyle: Love it! Thanks guys, this was fun.

Kelly: Also love it! Thank you Kyle, thank you Vicky!! 🥂 Here's to finding the good vibrations.


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